I would be blind to the responsibilities that mark this fateful hour if I did not caution the wage-earners of America that mounting wages and decreased production can lead only to industrial and economic ruin.Herbert Hoover, 1920, during a speech given when receiving the nomination as the Republican Presidential nominee. He presided over the steepest and shortest US recession of the past 100 years.
A decade later Hoover and Roosevelt failed to heed these words and led the US into a depression while implementing similar policies as we see Obama and Harper implementing today.
35 comments:
You are the only person I know who blames the entire great depression on the dust bowl.
Bullshit. The 6 year drought combined with the thousands of bank failures led to a longer depression.
You are a follower who doesn't think.
Says the man that still can't explain the recession of the early 20s.
Says the man who believes the north had a moral responsibility to march thousands of soldiers into the south that leftist Kirkpatrick Sale referred to as a "autocratic, unconstitutional usurpation of power and the waging of a deadly war that defied all civilized standards of warfare to date."
Most of everything you say is completely in line with main stream media, except for maybe gun control. I don't think?
"Says the man that still can't explain the recession of the early 20s."
We already went over this. The recession was due to a glut of inventory. Duh.
"Says the man who believes the north had a moral responsibility to march thousands of soldiers into the south that leftist Kirkpatrick Sale referred to as a "autocratic, unconstitutional usurpation of power and the waging of a deadly war that defied all civilized standards of warfare to date.""
What are you talking about? Generally in English we clearly state the noun before we use the corresponding pronoun.
"Most of everything you say is completely in line with main stream media, except for maybe gun control. I don't think?"
Well, obviously, since I am taking that stance. DUH.
"We already went over this. The recession was due to a glut of inventory. Duh."
You're almost there. Why the glut of inventory?
"What are you talking about? Generally in English we clearly state the noun before we use the corresponding pronoun. "
Sorry. Just pointing out your inability to think your way through whether or not the Civil War was necessary.
Josh, the 1920s wages were nothing compared to wages of New Deal America. That's when the general prosperity started.
Again, ignoring the massive numbers of bank failures and a prolonged dust bowl that put tens of thousands of farms out of business is UNREALISTIC. The unsucessful government spending, at most, added another year on the the natural cycle of the depression. It is the six years of dust, subsequent farm failures, and bank failures that led to the Great Depression's famous longevity.
Because farms go bankrupt, doesn't mean they disappear. 10s of thousand would only work out to a small increase in unemployment, no 25% of the population. I don't the numbers well enough, but the fact that the dust bowl is generally not talked about when discussing the causes of the great depression (probably because the cause of the dust bowl was the government) from both sides is enough for me to not care.
Banks going bankrupt because they cannot meet the demands of their depositors simply indicate the fraud fractional reserve banking is.
The new deal was more than just poor spending policies, but as well market controls on labour costs and the price of food. Not allowing the market to function limits its ability to liquidate bad assets and failing businesses, prolonging the recession into a depression.
As far as wages, if the standard of living was so much better in the 30s than the 20s, why was it called the great depression?
More than 500,000 went homeless due to the Great Dust Bowl. Translate that number into that number of farmers (divide by 7?) and then try to imagine how much that absence of spending had on other businesses. MASSIVE.
"but the fact that the dust bowl is generally not talked about when discussing the causes of the great depression (probably because the cause of the dust bowl was the government) from both sides is enough for me to not care."
Then you are a lazy, stupid follower.
25% were unemployed by 1933. There were 25,000 banks in 1928 and just 14,000 in 1933.
Most small towns had two or three banks that were competing for farmer's money. Once the drought hit and stayed, those extra banks went out of business. DUH.
"As far as wages, if the standard of living was so much better in the 30s than the 20s, why was it called the great depression?"
I was referencing the post-war result of the New Deal policies.
"Then you are a lazy, stupid follower."
Yes, you alone have discovered the real reason for the depression, the Great Dust Bowl! Caused by the subsidization for farm land a decade earlier by the government and solved by FDR's government telling farmers to burn wheat to keep the prices high...wait, what?
"I was referencing the post-war result of the New Deal policies."
Correlation does not equal causation. Have you ever wondered if the economy grew despite FDR's policies? Have you ever wondered how the economy and the standard of living managed to grow without welfare? Have you ever wondered why poverty was shrinking over time without welfare?
"Yes, you alone have discovered the real reason for the depression, the Great Dust Bowl!"
It always starts with one, Josh. Nor did I argue that the Dust Bowl was the sole cause. I am arguing that it is a significant cause.
"Caused by the subsidization for farm land a decade earlier by the government"
Hey, I thought the 1921 correction solved the farm subsidization problem?
"and solved by FDR's government telling farmers to burn wheat to keep the prices high...wait, what?"
This does not, in any way, subtract from the causal impact of the dust bowl. If you think does, then you need to see a logician.
"Hey, I thought the 1921 correction solved the farm subsidization problem?"
How so?
"This does not, in any way, subtract from the causal impact of the dust bowl. If you think does, then you need to see a logician."
No because the dust bowl doesn't excuse the policies of FDR either. That's the point.
"How so?"
Well, presumably they stopped paying the farmers more for their wheat to feed the troops once the war ended (as in NOT a subsidy).
"No because the dust bowl doesn't excuse the policies of FDR either. That's the point."
Who said the Great Dust Bowl justified the unsuccessful policies of Franklin Roosevelt?
"Well, presumably they stopped paying the farmers more for their wheat to feed the troops once the war ended (as in NOT a subsidy)."
Right, but the damage was done by then.
Farmers had no incentive to maintain all of the land the previously had because they were no longer getting the high price from the government.
"Who said the Great Dust Bowl justified the unsuccessful policies of Franklin Roosevelt?"
You, typically.
"Right, but the damage was done by then.
Farmers had no incentive to maintain all of the land the previously had because they were no longer getting the high price from the government."
Are you telling me that farmers leaving unused and overused land in fallow once every three years is wrong? Because there were ten years between the government paying higher wages to feed the troops and the beginning of the dust bowl. Surely the land had time to health if the depression of 1921 corrected the price fixing?
"You, typically."
Not, I, bonehead. That's your internal Austrian discourse taking over your brain.
FDR had some unsuccessful programs, no doubt.
"Are you telling me that farmers leaving unused and overused land in fallow once every three years is wrong? Because there were ten years between the government paying higher wages to feed the troops and the beginning of the dust bowl. Surely the land had time to health if the depression of 1921 corrected the price fixing?"
I don't follow. Destroyed abandoned land doesn't suddenly because fixed with price corrections. Where are you going with this?
I wondering why the fallow land didn't repair itself over a decade? Am I right? If the economy corrected itself in 1921, then it follows that the land was fallow for 10 years.
"I wondering why the fallow land didn't repair itself over a decade? Am I right? If the economy corrected itself in 1921, then it follows that the land was fallow for 10 years."
Plows destroy land. Ask Dad.
Yes, and ten years fallow replenishes it.
No. The farmers kept plowing through the 20s. They had no choice because of the investments into capital and their debts on the capital. So they kept plowing 33 million acres of land hoping the price of wheat would go back up to what the government paid them through the war but it never did and they destroyed all of this land, leaving it vulnerable to the windstorm.
Had the government not provided such a high price, the farmers wouldn't have over invested.
Well then, this leads us back to the original cause, which is war, not subsidy or price fixing.
And what allowed for the war> going off the gold standard.
The US should never have been in the war in the first place.
We were still on the gold standard during WWI and WWII.
Again, the cause was nationalism and war, not "subsidies".
Wilson dropped the gold standard going into WWI and FDR dropped the gold standard in 1933.
Ah, I see. No, going off the gold standard did not allow the war. Japan attacking the US allowed that. Going off the gold standard was the result, not the cause of the war. Just as the Civil War was the result of slavery, not the cause.
Yup, just goes to show you that the gold standard is only a standard as long as those in power say it is, which means it is not much of a standard at all.
Also, the US had huge gold reserves during those wars, so it is better to say that the US suspended access to gold during the war. :) The standard WAS NOT eliminated, just suspended.
"You're almost there. Why the glut of inventory?"
Because they made too much.
"Had the government not provided such a high price, the farmers wouldn't have over invested."
So, again, war is the cause.
"Correlation does not equal causation. Have you ever wondered if the economy grew despite FDR's policies? Have you ever wondered how the economy and the standard of living managed to grow without welfare? Have you ever wondered why poverty was shrinking over time without welfare?"
Inching increases due to violent worker strikes. That's why. Got it?
"Says the man who believes the north had a moral responsibility to march thousands of soldiers into the south that leftist Kirkpatrick Sale referred to as a "autocratic, unconstitutional usurpation of power and the waging of a deadly war that defied all civilized standards of warfare to date.""
Yup, if I believe in universal rights, yes, it was a just war.
"Just as the Civil War was the result of slavery, not the cause."
The civil war was the result of Lincoln marching troops into the south.Otherwise secession would have taken place without war.
"Yup, just goes to show you that the gold standard is only a standard as long as those in power say it is, which means it is not much of a standard at all."
And yet it still persists today as the price of gold continually rises and banks around the world continue to buy it. In the market, gold is money and those in power cannot change that no matter how hard they try. For it to be the official currency, it need not have the support of those in power, but the support of the people as this will force the hand of those in power.
If the US didn't go off the gold standard they wouldn't have been able to fight in WWI which could have prevented WWII.
They also wouldn't have been able to go to war in Korea, and, as the final link to gold broke in 1971, they wouldn't have been able to afford the war in vietnam. Both Iraq wars would never have occurred. It would be a very different world.
"Because they made too much."
Why would otherwise competent businessmen make too much?
"So, again, war is the cause."
And why was the US Government involved in WWI. . .?
"Inching increases due to violent worker strikes. That's why. Got it?"
So progress can occur without a socialist president. . wow.
"Yup, if I believe in universal rights, yes, it was a just war."
And the rights of the murdered?
The only just war is a defensive war.
"The civil war was the result of Lincoln marching troops into the south.Otherwise secession would have taken place without war."
Lincoln would never have marched troops if the southern states hadn't seceded due to slavery. The entire pre-Civil War press discourse, both in the North and South, disproves your theory that slavery wasn't the key issue.
"And yet it still persists today as the price of gold continually rises and banks around the world continue to buy it."
Gold is valuable, yup.
"In the market, gold is money and those in power cannot change that no matter how hard they try."
Nope, in the market exchange value is money.
"For it to be the official currency, it need not have the support of those in power, but the support of the people as this will force the hand of those in power."
Which means you have to have people in power who support the gold standard in all scenarios. Did we just go in a circle?
"Why would otherwise competent businessmen make too much?"
Because inventory wasn't as accurate as it is today and because those capitalists wanted to make sure they had enough to meet demand, which means they produced too much.
"And why was the US Government involved in WWI. . .?"
Not finding any obvious route this argument might go, so answer your own question..
"So progress can occur without a socialist president. . wow."
Inching increases resulting from a REVOLUTIONARY COMMUNIST LEADERSHIP. Moreover, the big increases didnt happen until after WII, after the New Deal had had time to affect the economy. The unions were coopted into government and their leadership de-revolutionarized in exchange for dramatically higher wages and job security.
"And the rights of the murdered?"
They, who were criminals, gave them up when they contradicted the universal rights of all people. Criminals give up their rights when they kill or exploit. That is how our justice system works. Once a person is judged guilty by a jury, that person's rights are forfeited.
"The only just war is a defensive war."
I'd like to see you say that to a slave fighting for his freedom or a civil rights activist of the Black Panther variety.
"Lincoln would never have marched troops if the southern states hadn't seceded due to slavery. The entire pre-Civil War press discourse, both in the North and South, disproves your theory that slavery wasn't the key issue."
Slavery might have been the key issue for the southern states to secede, but tariffs was the Lincoln marched on the south.
Anyhow, Lincoln had no right to march on the South for whatever reason; the same as Bush had no right to march into Iraq.
"Nope, in the market exchange value is money."
Central banks still capitalize with gold.
"Nope, in the market exchange value is money."
Central banks still capitalize with gold.
"Because inventory wasn't as accurate as it is today and because those capitalists wanted to make sure they had enough to meet demand, which means they produced too much."
They produced too much because money was cheap during the war, which always encourages malinvestment.A company cannot predict demand for its product any better 100 years ago than it can today.
"Not finding any obvious route this argument might go, so answer your own question.."
There's no obvious reason. They shouldn't have been and it caused more pain than good. If congress had kept the country on the gold standard they wouldn't have been able to afford it.
"Moreover, the big increases didnt happen until after WII, after the New Deal had had time to affect the economy. The unions were coopted into government and their leadership de-revolutionarized in exchange for dramatically higher wages and job security."
So the middle class didn't receive a big increase in their standard of living during the late 19th century?
"They, who were criminals, gave them up when they contradicted the universal rights of all people. Criminals give up their rights when they kill or exploit. That is how our justice system works. Once a person is judged guilty by a jury, that person's rights are forfeited."
What jury of peers convicted which criminal? As well, as the south a seceded, they obviously wouldn't have been held to the justice system of a foreign country. As well, only the capitalists(lol) owned slaves; how about the thousands of people who died who committed no other crime than reject the oppression of the north?
And no, rights are not forfeited in the United States once found guilty of a crime hence the eighth amendment.
"I'd like to see you say that to a slave fighting for his freedom or a civil rights activist of the Black Panther variety."
You think I'd be stupid enough to get myself killed? I'm not defending slavery. I'm just not following the false assumption that hundreds of thousands of people needed to be murdered in war in order to abolish slavery, especially since every other western nation was able to do so peacefully, and especially since slavery still exists today.
"Slavery might have been the key issue for the southern states to secede, but tariffs was the Lincoln marched on the south."
That's what he said. ;)
"Anyhow, Lincoln had no right to march on the South for whatever reason; the same as Bush had no right to march into Iraq."
Then you, my friend, have a contradiction in your outlook, because in my book, whenever a government blocks or limits the inherent rights or democractic action of the people, the people have the right. Therefore, Lincoln had the right as a rerpesentitive of the peopel and a protector of the rights laid down in the constitution.
"Central banks still capitalize with gold."
Gold when exchanged is money.
"They produced too much because money was cheap during the war, which always encourages malinvestment.A company cannot predict demand for its product any better 100 years ago than it can today."
You try doing inventory with paper and a pencil and with a computer and then get back to me.
"So the middle class didn't receive a big increase in their standard of living during the late 19th century?"
That's right. And when did I start talking about the middle class? I thought the working class was what I was talking about.
"What jury of peers convicted which criminal? As well, as the south a seceded, they obviously wouldn't have been held to the justice system of a foreign country. As well, only the capitalists(lol) owned slaves; how about the thousands of people who died who committed no other crime than reject the oppression of the north?"
They could have put their guns down. And, no, 25% of the South own slaves, which means at least 60% of it was affected by that economy. Many Southerners thought the economy would collapse if they freed the slaves, which is true and is why they fought.
"And no, rights are not forfeited in the United States once found guilty of a crime hence the eighth amendment."
Try again, bonehead. The eigth amendment merely limits the type of punishment allowed. Being imprisoned forfeits your right to liberty, to move around. Need I continue?
"You think I'd be stupid enough to get myself killed? I'm not defending slavery. I'm just not following the false assumption that hundreds of thousands of people needed to be murdered in war in order to abolish slavery, especially since every other western nation was able to do so peacefully, and especially since slavery still exists today."
Most of them DID after with this civil war in mind and most of those that did before didn't have an entire region dependent upon slavery for wealth. They were uniform, and hence could get rid of slavery uniformily.
Post a Comment