Friday, August 21, 2009

Ron Paul on Anderson Cooper

10 comments:

Christopher said...

Paul never touches upon the fact that insurance companies have to have death panels because too many sick people wipes out their profits. It is a fact. And the smaller the insurance company, which is what RP is suggest we implement thought the "free" market", will only make this problem worse. Small insurance will have to have death panels and will probably go out of business.

Christopher said...

What Paul is suggesting Americans do is akin to closing your eyes and hoping someone innovates the nature of business to make insurance companies not death panels to profit.

Josh said...

"insurance companies have to have death panels because too many sick people wipes out their profits."

They do not HAVE to. Some certainly do, but if competition was more prevalent, individuals would be able to choose between a plan and a company that requires such conditions and one that does not. If old sick people wiped out their profits, insurance companies wouldn't be able to exist.

"Small insurance will have to have death panels and will probably go out of business."

Thats a grand assumption based on no historical fact.

"What Paul is suggesting Americans do is akin to closing your eyes and hoping someone innovates the nature of business to make insurance companies not death panels to profit."

I think he sees something more inherently wrong with a government program with death panels and a private insurance program with death panels. So no, I don't think he's suggesting Americans to close their eyes and hope, that's what Obama suggested (they better not open their eyes yet, or else they'll be very disappointed with the results.) Paul is suggesting to American to stop government from taking control of the health care system and understand that health care can exist in a free market like any other good or service.

Christopher said...

"They do not HAVE to. Some certainly do, but if competition was more prevalent, individuals would be able to choose between a plan and a company that requires such conditions and one that does not. If old sick people wiped out their profits, insurance companies wouldn't be able to exist."

YES, they HAVE to, or they wouldn't be able to make any profits if enough people get sick enough to wipe out their profits. And if they didn't exist, doctors and hospitals would still have to charge ridiculous fees, which would lead to more uninsured.

"Thats a grand assumption based on no historical fact."

It is based on the historical fact of supply and demand and cost and profit analysis. Are you denying that terms have existed historically?

"I think he sees something more inherently wrong with a government program with death panels and a private insurance program with death panels."

And the difference is?

"Paul is suggesting to American to stop government from taking control of the health care system and understand that health care can exist in a free market like any other good or service."

For some people.

No matter how you spin it, Josh, cancer treatment is still going to costs a ridiculous amount of money. Insurance-based coverage leads to corporate death panels and free market economics will lead to no insurance companies. That means the choice is between paying sums of money no non-rich family can pay and socialized medicine. I'll take the socialized medicine because I am not some "THE GOVERNMENT" bonehead.

Josh said...

"they wouldn't be able to make any profits if enough people get sick enough to wipe out their profits."

Are you an executive for an insurance company? Do you know how retarded it sounds for you to make such a claim when you have absolutely no education on the business model of a insurance company? If there was no way to do it and earn a profit, then insurance companies simply would not exist and medicine would be left between the patient and the doctor, as it should be anyway.

"doctors and hospitals would still have to charge ridiculous fees"

Doctors and hospitals would need to charge rates that would allow them to make a profit. The less doctors, the lesser the supply of health care...this would be easily solved if the federal government in the US didn't regulate the number of students universities are allowed to have in their medical programs.

"It is based on the historical fact of supply and demand and cost and profit analysis. Are you denying that terms have existed historically?"

Supply and demand is theory...a historical fact is that the majority of the civilized world eliminated slavery without a civil war. Gravity is a theory, historical fact is that George Washington was the first US president. Evolution is theory, historical fact is that Nazi Germany kill 6 million people of Jewish faith. Global Warming is a theory, that CO2 levels in the atmosphere has always risen after temperatures increase is a historical fact.

Do you need any further examples of the differences between theories and historical fact?

"Are you denying that terms have existed historically?"

I am denying that you know how to run an insurance company. That you assume you do is the major problem with the left> you always assume to know what you don't, and you never know what you don't know.

"And the difference is?"

The government has guns.

"No matter how you spin it, Josh, cancer treatment is still going to costs a ridiculous amount of money."

Depends, but neither you nor I will know how much it should cost today, nor how much it should cost 10 years from now. Only the market knows that. Any assumption otherwise cause a distortion in the supply and demand of cancer treatment.

"free market economics will lead to no insurance companies"

Fortunately free market economics also means that prices precipitously DECLINE providing higher availability to the middle class and poor.

"I'll take the socialized medicine"

Good for you. Leave me out of it.

Christopher said...

"Are you an executive for an insurance company? Do you know how retarded it sounds for you to make such a claim when you have absolutely no education on the business model of a insurance company?"

Why do you think I have no education about how it works, Josh? Logic allows me to understand why a company needs death panels to reject patients so that it can continue to make profit. Logic.

I hope you are not going to make that little elitist fallacy again. Argument from authority is very ugly, Josh.

"If there was no way to do it and earn a profit, then insurance companies simply would not exist "

WRONG. There is a way to do it: It's called DEATH PANELS>

"and medicine would be left between the patient and the doctor, as it should be anyway."

Yes, and then there would be a need for some sort of equalizer, because the cost of modern care is soaring. We no longer live in the world of the 30s, 40s, 50s, or even 70s. The cost is soaring because it is getting better and because it is saving lives. Back in the fucking thirties people died. THAT WAS IT.

Also, a Brit, who is from *gasp* a socialized medicine country helped develop MRIs! OMG! IT WASN'T CAPITALISM THAT INNOVATED HEALTH CARE!

Also, a Brit, who is from *gasp* a socialized medicine country helped develop cat scans! OMG! IT WASN'T CAPITALISM THAT INNOVATED HEALTH CARE! Sorry to shatter your little universe!

"Doctors and hospitals would need to charge rates that would allow them to make a profit. The less doctors, the lesser the supply of health care...this would be easily solved if the federal government in the US didn't regulate the number of students universities are allowed to have in their medical programs."

This is probably true. I'm all for the factoryization of the knowledge of medicine.

"Supply and demand is theory..."

LOL, no, and please dont make me provide you with a blindingly obvious example.

"a historical fact is that the majority of the civilized world eliminated slavery without a civil war."

It is also a historical fact that property caused slavery.

"Gravity is a theory, historical fact is that George Washington was the first US president."

No, gravity is both a descriptive theory and a fact.

"Evolution is theory, historical fact is that Nazi Germany kill 6 million people of Jewish faith."

Evolution is a fact, or at least more of a fact than creationism. The massive amount of facts that suggest evolution is true, in effect, logically, make it a fact. Justice/trial by jury works the same way.

"Global Warming is a theory, that CO2 levels in the atmosphere has always risen after temperatures increase is a historical fact."

I'll agree here, but only because I know that there is much, much, much, much less supporting evidence.

"I am denying that you know how to run an insurance company. That you assume you do is the major problem with the left> you always assume to know what you don't, and you never know what you don't know."

I know why, logically, an insurance company would need a death panel. It is blindingly obvious to anyone with a brain. TO MAXIMIZE OR TO MAKE PROFITS. Attacking me ad hominemly will not make your position correct. Maybe you could suggest another reason that a health insurance company would need death panels?

"The government has guns."

The corporations influence the politicians who control the guys with the guns. Right?

Your little friend in the US is WRONG. He doesn't know his head from the tip of his finger. I'm betting that you have no alternative reason why the health insurance corporations would have to have death panels.

Christopher said...

"Depends, but neither you nor I will know how much it should cost today, nor how much it should cost 10 years from now. Only the market knows that. Any assumption otherwise cause a distortion in the supply and demand of cancer treatment."

LOL, whatever, Josh. If you think they are going to give this stuff away at a loss to their initial investment you are really messed up. It take millions of dollars to think up these ideas and probably ten times that to develop it into a workable product. IT IS NOT THE FUCKING 30S ANYMORE WHERE DOCTORS COME TO YOUR HOUSE.

"Fortunately free market economics also means that prices precipitously DECLINE providing higher availability to the middle class and poor."

Not at all. You are forgetting about the cost of development.

"Good for you. Leave me out of it.'

You don't have the choice to be a dictator when you want. Please respect the Republican democratic process. Thanks!

Josh said...

"Logic allows me to understand why a company needs death panels to reject patients so that it can continue to make profit. Logic."

Logic states that if a company could not sell health insurance without death panels at a profit, it'll be the first highly demanded product to ever exist in the history of humanity that could not turn a profit. Logic states that if you have never sat down and crunched the numbers and ran an insurance company, you have no idea how profitable the product could be. But that's just logic.

"because the cost of modern care is soaring."

...because of government intervention. Logic would dictate that if doctors were forced to compete for patients, instead of charging insurance companies large, flat fees, doctors would need to lower their fees. Logic.

"The cost is soaring because it is getting better and because it is saving lives."

I type on a machine that is exponentially more powerful than anything similar 50 years, almost everyone in the modern world owns one, most people in the world have access to it, and yet the price of it has severely dropped as the technology has gotten better...logic would state that if health care existed in a free market the same way computers do, the cost of health care would drop as the service improved. Logic.

"Also, a Brit, who is from *gasp* a socialized medicine country helped develop MRIs! OMG! IT WASN'T CAPITALISM THAT INNOVATED HEALTH CARE!

Also, a Brit, who is from *gasp* a socialized medicine country helped develop cat scans! OMG! IT WASN'T CAPITALISM THAT INNOVATED HEALTH CARE! Sorry to shatter your little universe!"

Who ever said innovation stops with socialized medicine?

"This is probably true. I'm all for the factoryization of the knowledge of medicine."

*GASP* YOU USED LOGIC TO COME TO A LOGICAL CONCLUSION!

Josh said...

"It is also a historical fact that property caused slavery."

Property still exists in a big way, and yet slavery, while it still exists, does not do so in a big way. So I do not think its fair to say because property exists therefore slavery exists. So this would actually be a theory. But good try.

"at least more of a fact"

LOL Nothing can be MORE of a fact. The comparison essentially defines NEITHER as fact.

"The massive amount of facts that suggest evolution is true, in effect, logically, make it a fact."

Other facts do not define something as a fact. Its either a fact or not a fact. That you need to refer to other facts to argue a fact, makes that fact a THEORY. Good try though.

"Justice/trial by jury works the same way."

Yes, they pull together a series of facts to make a THEORY...using a very imperfect justice system to prove something is a fact, is poor logic. Please use logic. Lots of juries thought the facts proved many men to have committed murders, that DNA (fact) later proved to be false. Convictions and acquittals are based on theory.

"I know why, logically, an insurance company would need a death panel."

What you know has NOTHING to do with logic.

"Maybe you could suggest another reason that a health insurance company would need death panels?"

The problem here is that you assume they NEED death panels to make a PROFIT. No. The current insurance companies may WANT death panels to make MORE profit, but that does not mean in a free market they would NEED death panels. In the managed health care system in the US, most people do not have a choice who their health care provider is> its who gave their employer the best deal. In a free market, individuals could choose to purchase insurance from a company willing to cut the profit margin to gain customers who do not want to be subject to a death panel. Some insurance companies might even find this to be more profitable as some might be willing to pay more for such a product, and since more people would probably want it, they'd have no trouble attracting customers from insurance companies WITH death panels.

"The corporations influence the politicians who control the guys with the guns. Right?"

If you're insinuating that the insurance companies have control of the guns, that's Mussolini's fascism, no?

Josh said...

"If you think they are going to give this stuff away at a loss to their initial investment you are really messed up."

I think the cost of their initial investment is distorted by government intervention, and the ability for companies to charge a fortune to the government and hospitals for their products (medicine, tools, etc) is because of the subsidization of the health care industry through managed care and regulation.

"Not at all. You are forgetting about the cost of development."

And you are forgetting about the entire home electronics industry.

"You don't have the choice to be a dictator when you want."

I'm not being a dictator, I'm telling you to get your fucking hand out of my wallet.