Tuesday, December 8, 2009

Southern Avenger: Weather of Mass Destruction

32 comments:

Sheldon Furlong said...

Interesting video. I take health news frm the Health Ranger so political news from The Southern Avenger makes sense!
His last observation that no matter the problem we look to government to solve the problem is true. The individual has to look at how their actions contribute to a problem, stop those actions and then demand Governmnet leadership. Not go to the Government first.

Christopher Furlong: said...

HORRIBLE>>>>>>>>>> The majority of science DID NOT believe the world was going into another ice age and did not have the evidential backing that global warming has. The only article of faith here is that blind adherence to a "anti-establishment" mindset, without logical support, is good.

Christopher Furlong: said...

The global cooling conjecture only happened during the 70s and only part of the 70s. The global warming THEORY has been a dominant theory for close to 20 years.

Christopher Furlong: said...

Actually, Dad, the solution should not be limited to one or the other. I thought that would be quite obvious to a Christian. You know, Christians are for both individual and communal effort? That means that both the individual AND government coordination have to occur.

Christopher Furlong: said...

Even so-called protestants work together to solve problems. The word "Catholic" means unity, and for good reason..

Christopher Furlong: said...

I think the global cooling crap was quashed right around the time when the first ice core tests were done, which clearly showed that we are in a global warming phase.

Josh said...

A lot of independent scientists think we're more likely heading into a cooling phase right now.

Global Warming has NOT been a DOMINANT theory for 20 years. Not that it matters. At one point in history the dominant theory was that the world was flat and at the center of the universe. Should we be reorganizing society and eliminating freedoms on such theories? No.

Anyway, who here is a Christian?

Sheldon Furlong said...

I think Chris that we have a tendency to expect the government to do what we ourselves are reluctant to do without it being legislated. It all starts with the individual choosing to do the right thing!

I agree that for true effectiveness that a combination of government and individuals is eventually necessary.

As far as using Christianity as an example of high human endeavor I will argue that nothing in human history has been as destructive as religion of all stripes.

Global warming or global cooling even many of those scientists that dispute man made climate change recognize the planet is warming.

Taking action to reduce the polluting activities will bring dividends to humanity no matter which side of the arguement one is on.

Josh said...

"As far as using Christianity as an example of high human endeavor I will argue that nothing in human history has been as destructive as religion of all stripes."

Well, religion and government. Religion did most of its harm when it controlled government..government got rid of religion, and some how has kept doing lots of harm..how odd.

Sheldon Furlong said...

Much of the damage to humanity was done by governments in the name of religion.

"In God we trust"

Josh said...

"Global warming or global cooling even many of those scientists that dispute man made climate change recognize the planet is warming."

No, they recognize the climate is changing. Whether it is warming or cooling is disputed. If the southern hemisphere is cooling and northern hemisphere is warming...are we warming or cooling?

Josh said...

"Much of the damage to humanity was done by governments in the name of religion."

Well, LIKE I SAID, done by governments controlled by religion. Stalin's communist Russia wasn't controlled by religion, neither has American foreign policy, yet they both seem to do lots of harm. I don't see the Catholic church bombing anyone and displacing hundreds of thousands of people today.

Christopher Furlong: said...

"A lot of independent scientists think we're more likely heading into a cooling phase right now."

Based on what? The melting glaciers, increasing temperatures, and droughts?

"I think Chris that we have a tendency to expect the government to do what we ourselves are reluctant to do without it being legislated. It all starts with the individual choosing to do the right thing!"

And the right thing to do is demand collective action via government to make laws that curb emissions. It is very simple.

"No, they recognize the climate is changing. Whether it is warming or cooling is disputed. If the southern hemisphere is cooling and northern hemisphere is warming...are we warming or cooling?"

You don't seem to understand the ice core graphs. The warming is in context of rises and dips happening all DURING the overall warming. We might be in a dip phase, but that does not mean that the overall warming trend is over.

Josh said...

"And the right thing to do is demand collective action via government to make laws that curb emissions. It is very simple."

Yes, creating laws is very simple. There should be a law that everyone must be rich and happy.

"You don't seem to understand the ice core graphs. The warming is in context of rises and dips happening all DURING the overall warming. We might be in a dip phase, but that does not mean that the overall warming trend is over."

Ice cores are taken from the north.

Sheldon Furlong said...

All too often when one finds credible people on both sides of an arguement it simply means that no one really knows. Just like religion the individual gets to choose what they believe makes the most sense in their reality.

Some people still beleive smoking is safe as there really is no absolute proof that it is not! They are right there is no absolute proof!

Maybe we should put aside the discussion of climate change and find out where the glaciers are going and why.

If areas of the earth are showing a cooling trend then apply research to understand why.

Unfortunately Goverments do not want to be seen as doing nothing so we begin mass debates with intense finger pointing of who will do what first. Thus Copenhagen.

Throw out all of the climate change dogma on both sides of the arguement.

It remains just plain commen sense that we stop immediately spoiling our nest. Climate change or no climate change.

Josh said...

"It remains just plain commen sense that we stop immediately spoiling our nest. Climate change or no climate change."

Indeed.

Christopher Furlong: said...

"Yes, creating laws is very simple. There should be a law that everyone must be rich and happy."

Good idea. :)

"Ice cores are taken from the north."

Where the industrial revolution took place.


"It remains just plain commen sense that we stop immediately spoiling our nest. Climate change or no climate change."

Ah, yes, the common sense "middle ground". So, Dad, what do we do? I'd like to hear these "common sense" solutions.

Josh said...

"Ah, yes, the common sense "middle ground". So, Dad, what do we do? I'd like to hear these "common sense" solutions."

We kill the biggest polluter on the planet -> governments.

Christopher Furlong: said...

"We kill the biggest polluter on the planet -> governments."

LOL, The Government drives all the cars and operates all the factories! That's fresh!

Sheldon Furlong said...

Well boys now that you ask me I can tell you.

First of all you have to accept that you are the problem. Not governments or corporations.

Every action you take has a consequence. Every decision you make makes a difference.

What you buy how you live and what you eat are all representative of your beliefs.

People need to be aware that their waste is the start of a much larger pile and work to keep the pile lower.

If you are concerned with the planet and its future it all starts with you. Doing the best you can. Use less packaging, cut down on fuel use, do not waste water or defile it unecessarily.

And the single largest thing that an individual can do is not consume animal based foods or at least reduce consumption to a minute amount.

Too many people beleive they are not doing anything wrong and laws need to be put in place to change the other guy.

Yes half baked idealism. Be aware of your responsibility and do the best you can. Reuse, recycle and reduce usage. Eat environmetally friendly organic plant foods, primarily.

Yes call me a wild eyed radical. Okay!

now you know what to do!

Christopher Furlong: said...

"First of all you have to accept that you are the problem. Not governments or corporations."

Horrible. Governments are one of the most important ways we can act collectively, which is why right wingers and "democrats" that are paid by the corporations don't want it.

"Yes half baked idealism. Be aware of your responsibility and do the best you can. Reuse, recycle and reduce usage. Eat environmetally friendly organic plant foods, primarily.

Yes call me a wild eyed radical. Okay!"

LOL, this crap philosophy has been peddled since the 1990s, but we still haven't reduced emission to 1990 levels. In fact, we have increased emissions. Garbage.

Christopher Furlong: said...

Moreover, you are not a radical, you are an idealist. There is a difference. Nor are you becoming a vegetarian because you want to save the planet. That means that you can ramble on about personal responsibility and how capitalism is the most logical system AT THE SAME TIME. Half-baked idealism.

Josh said...

"Governments are one of the most important ways we can act collectively"

Governments promote pollution through subsidization and favorable laws to big business. As well, the Pentagon is one of the largest polluters on the planet.

Christopher Furlong: said...

Still not the biggest polluter on the Earth; not by a long shot.

Christopher Furlong: said...

This is one of those points that makes me act rudely. It is clear that the government is not the #1 polluter, but Josh will continue on thinking that it is because he is a mindless ideologue.

Josh said...

Western governments subsidize the use of oil. This means that people in the west do not pay the true cost of using oil. Because of this, they use MORE causing MORE pollution, and it makes it hard for other transportation models (mass transit) to become a viable business option because they would be competing with a system subsidized by THE BIG BAD GOVERNMENT.

The government is not the largest polluter on earth by itself, but it is the leading cause of irresponsible behaviour that leads to increased pollution.

Christopher Furlong: said...

"Western governments subsidize the use of oil. This means that people in the west do not pay the true cost of using oil. Because of this, they use MORE causing MORE pollution, and it makes it hard for other transportation models (mass transit) to become a viable business option because they would be competing with a system subsidized by THE BIG BAD GOVERNMENT."

Oh, you mean that the government uses its military to control the oil supply.

That is a farce. OPEC controls it.

"The government is not the largest polluter on earth by itself, but it is the leading cause of irresponsible behaviour that leads to increased pollution."

All due to capitalist control of government.

Josh said...

"Oh, you mean that the government uses its military to control the oil supply."

Yea..the government doesn't do anything which might keep the price of oil artificially low...insert rolling eyes here

Capitalist control of government is an oxy-moron the left loves to use to slander capitalism. John D. Rockerfeller (one of your examples of an evil capitalist) once said "competition is man's greatest sin". These of not words of a capitalist or a free-marketeer. His actions and words would define him as a fascist or something else. This is true with all "capitalists" that try to use government power to exert their will on the people.

Chris said...

"Yea..the government doesn't do anything which might keep the price of oil artificially low...insert rolling eyes here"

That is not subsidization. That is control. They are different.

"Capitalist control of government is an oxy-moron the left loves to use to slander capitalism. John D. Rockerfeller (one of your examples of an evil capitalist) once said "competition is man's greatest sin"."

And? Capitalism also developed out of Christianity. Therefore, no surprises here!

"These of not words of a capitalist or a free-marketeer. His actions and words would define him as a fascist or something else. This is true with all "capitalists" that try to use government power to exert their will on the people."

That is completely irrelevant. They are men who developed capitalism as capitalism developed from the old Christian feudalism. You don't like it? Well too bad, because it is a fact.

Josh said...

"That is not subsidization. That is control. They are different."

Anytime government interferes in the market to reduce the cost of something, I am going to call is subsidization. Get used to it.

"That is completely irrelevant. They are men who developed capitalism as capitalism developed from the old Christian feudalism. You don't like it? Well too bad, because it is a fact."

They are men who found themselves in powerful positions because of capitalism and then chose to abuse this power, or they are men of inherited wealth and power that disdained capitalism from its infancy as a threat to their power and have worked to destroy it (these are the types of individuals I'm sure are bankrolling the democratic party, like the Rockerfellers). Either way, it's the government's responsibility to restrain this abuse by these individuals, not to be abused and to be take advantage of.

Chris said...

"Anytime government interferes in the market to reduce the cost of something, I am going to call is subsidization. Get used to it."

It is not subsidization. Look it up in the dictionary.

"They are men who found themselves in powerful positions because of capitalism and then chose to abuse this power, or they are men of inherited wealth and power that disdained capitalism from its infancy as a threat to their power and have worked to destroy it (these are the types of individuals I'm sure are bankrolling the democratic party, like the Rockerfellers). Either way, it's the government's responsibility to restrain this abuse by these individuals, not to be abused and to be take advantage of."

LOL, but taking advantage is a central capitalist virtue!

Josh said...

"LOL, but taking advantage is a central capitalist virtue!"

That wouldn't really line up with the christian roots capitalism has, would it?